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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Whose Soundboards?

A good friend who's been to several hundred shows made some particularly astute points to me today. We, the audience, own the audience tapes, hence their availability for download. The band, on the other hand, own the soundboards. Folks like Dan Healy and others made them available to some people, who then dubbed them into multigenerational tapes for dispersal amongst the community. My friend Tortoise asserts that he "worked hard to earn the 150 soundboard shows he has on tape by contacting traders out of the back of Relix in the days before the internet became the forum for this sort of thing." The SBDs belong to *the band* and we have been mighty priveleged to have them at all.

For those who believe that the band members are jelly-rolling along in dough, it may be useful to recall the band becoming bankrupt in 1974 due to poor business management. This was at a time when they were a touring juggernaut with a string of solid albums, both live and canned. It can happen again and who are we to expect near senior citizens to carry on with the sort of touring schedule necessary to live their notion of the American Dream? Who are we to judge what that Dream should encompass??

I encourage everyone to get over it and get out some postage stamps. I've already had one person e-mail me with a proposal to exchange hard drives via snail mail. The SBDs are out there and anyone wishing to can find them. Truly, there are more important issues in this world to worry about.

Again, I make the simple request: NO FLAMES, PLEASE. Respectful discourse appreciated as is similar off-list mail.

While I'm at it, I would be up for trading SBDs the updated old-fashioned way. I've got about 65 gigs coming to me shortly, with more likely after that, once I get them consolidated and sorted from the programmers at the radio station.


Peace, Love, and Respectful Diversity Of Opinion
-WoodWarbler
warbler@gmavt.net

This post was modified by WoodWarbler on 2005-12-02 09:57:58

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?



Ahh, a welcome voice of reason. I have similar feelings regarding both the "ownwership" of the music itself and the motives behind the Dead as a business wanting to "exploit" (no negative conotation implied) said music as a commodity. Let's face it, these guys are getting on, and are faced with the same personal and familial obligations that many of us have...not to mention obligations to the persons they employ. I would think the majority of us have little inkling of how much cashflow is necessary to keep a company moving, let alone run one in the black. Our notions of the hippie ideal cannot erase certain facts of life. Are the band members doing well? Yes, but not Hilton or Trump well (those are the type of folks that should be the focus of this misguided angst)...and the boys earned it. More power to them; I wish them all the best. And I'll buy the live music they produce....that is for sure.

To the naysayers....let me ask you: Does the wellfare of your loved ones concern you? How are you preparing for the future well being of your family, or their family once you are gone.

On a side note, I'm damn glad I can plug into any SBD I want, and let it fly...Thanks Archive(once again)!

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:53pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Please cite to the statutes or case law that backs up your statements. You put it out there like it is a fact- So I challenge you to provide sound legal reasoning that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the band owns the audience tapes- that goes for the soundboards, too.

"Live Musical Performances" are not currently copyrightable- that is just the facts. Read the Martignon case from the Southern District of NY 2004. Go ahead and google it. Sound recordings in the studio are copyrightable- live musical performances are not

So please do not make statements of "fact" or worse, statements purporting to be legal positions that are patently false.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 10:28pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose legal opinions?

Or, *don't* cite case law here. There are probably other legal cracker barrel forums to which you guys can go and hash stuff out. Some kind of Moot Court website out there? But here, as we can see from
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49814
the chosen resolution is understanding, gentlemanly compromise, patience, and respect. Not legal briefs.

In the old "about forum posting" thread, I said that people should confine their discussion of bands as it relates to the Archive. If people want to talk about "best grilled cheese in the parking lot", even though it might have been a Dead show parking lot, it is better to go to another forum somewhere else to do that. At this time, "best legal strategy" is another topic that has drifted a bit too far for here.

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Dec 3, 2005 2:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose legal opinions?

Diane

I am perfectly comfortable with the current resolution, as Ihave stated previously. And I had refrained from legal issues for only as long as I could, until some posters started to say things that were just not true. That is what bothers me- I cannot let those kind of statements go by without comment.

So long as others want to refrain from discussin copyright law, I will be glad to sit here and "Just listen to the music play.."

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 4, 2005 10:36pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose legal opinions?

OK Liam, so if you could just help me nag folks into not wasting their legal breath here (trained or untrained), that would be great, thanks!

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50062

Update: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-05 06:36:26

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Poster: Flakey Foont Date: Dec 3, 2005 5:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

One thing fo sure is; i'ts getting real deep if lawyers have to beat this dead horse. I suggest putting on a GD tune and relaxing a bit

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

"Does the wellfare of your loved ones concern you? How are you preparing for the future well being of your family, or their family once you are gone."

Great question!

I'm starting by going around and taking back every gift I ever gave to anyone, unless they are willing to pay me for it now.

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?



well...i'm sorry to hear that.

by your remark i see you missed the point of the perspective i was trying to provide. btw, your reasoning is a non sequitur...you have the choice to pay for certain recordings, or simply listen to any recording you desire, at any time, by logging on. your argument that a "gift" has been offered, and that offer rescinded in favor of a request for monetary exchange just does not stand up.

and you sound spoiled...

that's ok. i did not post up to enter into a debate, but simply to throw out my $.02. you are entitled to your opinion...as they say, opinions are like toothbrushes, everybody has one, but f$%* all if i'm gonna use yours.

i just wanted to offer a little positivity in the midst of so much petulant kicking and screaming..."mine, mine!"

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

" your argument that a "gift" has been offered, and that offer rescinded in favor of a request for monetary exchange just does not stand up."

Um, no.

My argument does stand up because, unlike you, you will see from my numerous posts to this forum that I am actually MAKING an argument instead of spouting platitudes, making strange emotional appeals re the welfare of Mickey Hart's pet llamas, and making conclusory wholly unsupported statements about the Dead's absolute rights to every note that ever went through their soundboard during every show for the past 40 years.

I hope you understand but I will repeat it for you just in case: my argument does stand up.

The Dead, in fact, DID give its fans the right to freely distribute a great deal of soundboard recordings -- not all of them but a great many of them -- and the Dead are now rescinding that right (or attempting to).

Are the Dead asking for money before they will allow anyone to download a soundboard recording of a live performance?

Gee, you tell me why the Dead are going through this maneuver.

Again: my argument stands up.

Yours doesn't.

Feel free to try again, though. It's a public bulletin board (at least for the time being).

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Poster: theotherone05 Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

It's plain and simple then, Don't listen anymore!

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 6:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

[defiant flamebait snipped. Please cool it here, thanks Chris. If you provide a contact point as suggested in another message, people can "take it to email" with you. -mod]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 14:02:16

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 8:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?


My apologies, Diana!

Of course, my memory is so short that I have no idea what I wrote exactly. ;)

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Poster: dac-n-dead Date: Dec 2, 2005 7:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Hey guys,
Just read the entire thread, very entertaining from a
reality TV perspective. Lots of great POV's(great job Chris
U. and others).Finding LMA was amazing, reliving that great music from thirty years ago has been a blast.It just
dawned on me the timing of all this(biggest shopping/gift giving time of the year) coincidence... Anyways , sure hope we can restore everything the way it was...
happy listening, Dave

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Poster: Jerryness Is Good Date: Dec 2, 2005 9:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

The DEAD aren't even taking the music back. Phil has made it clear that he had nothing to do with it...[moderated; please cool ad hominems now]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 17:16:18

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 2, 2005 9:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?


...i know that i didn't ever mention a lama. not once. mean spirited beasts, those...

streaming soundboards rules. if we want to own them, well its back to working for it, as the originator of this thread indicated. oh, well, nothing wrong with that--the music is worth it.

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Poster: SBDless Date: Dec 2, 2005 9:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Streaming soundboards suck...buffering....
Chris U. - kudos - this guy makes salient points and could lead a class action to reclaim what is in the public domain...
have you guys been to dead.net and noticed that it's completely redesigned, much more flashy & marketable???
COINCIDENCE????? I think not... GDM probably (erroneously) thought they could get the attention of the largest gathering of fans online by interrupting the status quo here at the Archive...what an idiot marketing ploy...if it wasn't purposeful & timed with the website launch, then how much more stupid does that make it? Can they really be so blind as to not anticipate this uproar?...

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 3, 2005 4:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

buffering is not an issue for me...plently of bandwith here I guess.

and relative to not being able to stream the music, streaming rules. to be able to log on and have the brilliant (or not so brilliant) performances of the dead effortlessly stream through my homes sound system, is sweet!

class action lawsuit? you people need to get a life!

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:27pm
Forum: etree Subject: Buffering

The issue of buffering is not the band's deal, it's the Archive's. I e-maile IA about it and all it will take is an increase in bandwidth, just like any other streaming radio station.

-WW

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Dec 4, 2005 5:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Buffering

It may means YOU need more bandwidth.

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 4, 2005 11:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Buffering

Hi Brad, I've been trying to figure this conundrum out for some time. From when I found archive.org last summer until approximately this spring, I had no trouble streaming everything without buffering breaks. I have a DSL connection. At some point in late spring, it became impossible to stream without buffering issues during the day from Monday through Friday. Late nights and weekends, however, I could stream without buffering interruptions. Moreover, I am able to stream nugs.net and virtually all other streaming media. IA streams open automatically in iTunes on my Mac as do many others. It is the only site I've had such troubles with and only recently. WHen I e-mailed with my query, the answer was "we've got so many people downloading and streaming all at once now that we need to expand our bandwidth." Apparently, the good Grateful news caught on and the number of visitors to IA spiked this past summer, thus creating the buffering problem. I've always been wicked picky about my Dead shows and always, always like to hear them before committing them to space in my library. I've never had a huge collection as a result, which is fine....I like the best and most interesting shows out there. Same goes with IA shows. I'd often scan for interesting, rare, or weirdly played tunes.

ANyhoo...do you think it could be my local internet service provider?

-Brian

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Poster: Hatta Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Technically, the aud tapes are still copyrighted by the band. Legally they're no different from a soundboard.

Unless the tape was stolen, the "we made these tapes!" argument is just as valid for soundboards as it is auds. Legally, completely invalid. But if you care about what's fair, it's a very convincing point.